Columbine High School Massacre: What caused it?

Some say the people committing the massacres were the bullies instead of being bullied themselves.

Resentment and social isolation. See the Major/Program/Book Resale Troll's threads.

Pretty sure this is the Program/Major troll.

Wouldn't be the first time he started a thread about a school massacre or bullying.

Eric Harris was a creep. People didn't like him because he was creepy. He was obsessed with guns and bombs and that tends to turn sane people off. So he got mad because people didn't like his creepy self. Being a creep who was obsessed with bombs and weapons, he decided to kill as many people as he could because they didn't like his creepy ass self. It's the kind of thing an obsessed creep does.

Dylan whatshisname had a weak personality. He allowed Harris to dominate him. He would not have ever thought to shoot people if he hadn't decided Harris was a cool guy to hang out with.

Their friend Brook was a creep too. I think he was involved but got himself out at the last minute and left the school before the shooting started.

People didn't like Eric Harris because of Eric Harris. Because you know what? Some people are just creeps. They're not misunderstood. They're not bullied. They're completely understood, and sane people move away from them. And that's what the deal was with Eric Harris. . Journals and videos he made and left behind have shown him to be a highly disturbed individual with violent obsessions. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be friends with a disturbed person who is obsessed with weapons and violence.

Easy access to deadly weaponry, that's what caused it!

A creep who is obsessed with guns and other weapons but who has no access to guns and weapons is much less of a menace.

It was about guns and psychopathy. It had little to do with bullying.

The Columbine massacre was actually a failed attempt to bomb the school. They had planted bombs in the cafeteria, and were planning to wait outside and shoot any students or teachers who tried to escape. They had also planted bombs in their cars, timed to go off while parents, paramedics, journalists, etc. were gathered outside. Then, when the bombs didn't go off, they just started shooting.

They hadn't planned to target kids who had bullied them - they had wanted to take out the entire school.

Brooks Brown - the guy who claimed Eric Harris had told him to go home before the shooting started - always seemed a bit dodgy to me. He claimed to have been at the funerals of both Rachel Scott and Dylan Klebold, even though they were held at the same time. He also claimed that he was the one who came up with the idea for Bowling for Columbine after a conversation with Klebold's father - he said he personally contacted Michael Moore, who agreed to fly out and make the documentary. It all sounded a bit bizarre to me.

Who knows? Best thing for them really; their therapy was going nowhere.

untreated mental illness, absent parents, easy access to weapons, poorly trained security at the school (they were leaving without having not actually killed anyone and the idiot security guard shot at them driving them back into the school and the library)

unlocked school campus, football-centric mentality, lots of stuff went wrong and lead to the incident.

Weren't those two guys lovers? I thought that was intimated somewhere.

it was intimated in the movie "Elephant" r10. That was just Gus Van Sandt's excuse to have them get naked and make out in the shower. In real life they were straight and griped a lot about not getting attention from girls.

That's not true, R11. Gus is an honorable man.

As I was a high school loser who was buddies with every other sad loser in my high school, I've thought a lot about the difference between a school shooter and the average pathetic kid at the bottom of the social scale. I've come to the conclusion that what separates the school shooters from the typical bullied kids is an obsession with weaponry, violence, and revenge.

FYI my pals and I were obsessed with computers and sci-fi instead of mass murder, and we all turned out okay. I even think that the sci-fi was a good influence overall; sure, we didn't live entirely in the real world, but our dream worlds were full of justice and ethics and the value of paying attention in physics class. So yes, I'm now proud to have been a Trekkie, better that that a druggie or worse.

People have tried to insinuate they were gay since it happened and they mean it as a slur. They are homophobic.

As the situation at the HS was playing out live on TV, CNN had witnesses on the phone. One was an asshole girl who kept referring to Harris and Klebold -- and the Trench Coat Mafia -- as "homosexuals." She said it over and over again. The newscaster stopped her and said, "You keep referring to them as homosexuals. You seem to think this is associated with violence. Most homosexuals are not known for violence. In fact, the opposite seems to be true." She quickly hung up on the call,

The newscaster figured it out. "F.aggot"'and "fa.g" were no longer permitted on high school campuses, so the kids were slyly using "homosexual" as a substitute, since they couldn't be disciplined for using the word. The girl was using the worst slur she could think of that wouldn't be bleeped on tv. She didn't mean it as "gay," she meant it as an insult.m

Millions of people were watching CNN and I think this was where the belief that they were gay came from.

Fact: Their boss at the pizzeria was a wanted terrorist in another country, accused of setting off bombs. Kind of strange that they were alleged to have built the bombs at the pizzeria. Who taught them how to build a bomb?

Anyone with ten minutes and an internet connection (or certain books) can learn how to build a bomb. It's not a fucking conspiracy of pizzeria owning terrorists. Freak.

IF you're truly interested in getting it right and you want to know what happened, you really should read Dave Cullen's book, Columbine. It was a real eye-opener. The most thorough, detailed discussion I have ever read. One point Cullen makes repeatedly, is that the "facts" the news media latches on to to construct a narrative when something like this happens are usually wrong. Incomplete at best, and mostly wrong. For one thing, these guys weren't loners. In fact, as the story of what actually happened unfolds, it's very scary.It could happen anywhere. It's one of the best non-fiction reads on this subject I have ever seen. Check it out. Chilling, fascinating read.

This is all about the bad relationship between Eric Harris and his dad.

But I don't buy the Dylan Klebold=weak follower bullshit. They were both bad.

Neo, Trinity and Morpheus?

[quote] For one thing, these guys weren't loners.

Klebold was popular and had no problem getting girls to date him.

Harris, on the other hand, was like most males with inflated egos. He wanted the beautiful girls who were way above his league and resented them for not wanting him.

They were terrorists.

But, according to United States and Corporate News Media policies, it is not possible for American-born white males who mass-murder U.S. civilians to be [italic]terrorists[/italic].

They were picked on and bullied.

When you are bullied, what do they tell you? Fight back.

Only instead of schoolyard punches, the two were much much smarter about standing up for themselves.

I'm not defending or glorifying them, but when you push and push and push then don't be so shocked when people push back.

Yes there was mental illness, absent parenting, etc... but it mostly came down to this.

R24 speaks what I also think is the truth. I remember when it happened; I - who had been bullied a lot in school - said to both my doting aunt, and my MUCH-younger BF, something like: what a horrible tragedy, but, I'm SORRY - I can sort of understand kids who (at least perceived themselves as) were bullied, snapping. I thought both my aunt and my BF would be shocked, shocked, shocked - they each agreed with me! She had been "too smart for the room" as a teenager; he - same thing. Me, too. (and NONE of us good in gym class.)

They weren't bullied or outcasts. That was a wrong impression, and yet the media peddled it because it was plausible, familiar and made people feel better. When someone does something heinous, we always, as a society, try to separate them from us. We want to assure ourselves they were aberrant and not the norm. But iwith the Columbine shooters, that was not the case.

They have a lot more in common with the Leopold & Loeb case, than with Adam Lanza, for example. Although in the L&L case there was definitely a Gay aspect. But I consider Columbine a thrill killing more than anything else. Was something wrong with these kids? Of course. There is something wrong with all mass murderers. But Columbine was something that was very hard to pin down to that category.

In many respects the shooters were no different from millions of middle class little shits, until they distinguished themselves.These two were thrill killers. One might argue that one of them was also suffering from Clinical Depression, which is not unusual in teenagers. You'd be shocked to discover how many teens suffer from Depression. But more than anything else, this was a thrill killing. It was something sensational they wanted to do. Period. And that sort of nihilism is really frightening. Especially when you couple it with access to guns and bombs.

One of Harris' last journal entries read: "I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't … say, 'Well that's your fault,' because it isn't, you people had my phone number, and I asked and all, but no. No no no don't let the weird-looking Eric KID come along."

Dylan Klebold said on the Basement Tapes, "You've been giving us shit for years. You're fucking gonna pay for all the shit! We don't give a shit. Because we're gonna die doing it."

Accounts from various parents and school staffers describe the bullying that has been described as "rampant" at the school. Nathan Vanderau, a friend of Klebold, and Alisa Owen, Harris's eighth-grade science partner, reported that Harris and Klebold were constantly picked on. Vanderau noted that a "cup of fecal matter" was thrown at them. "People surrounded them in the commons and squirted ketchup packets all over them, laughing at them, calling them fa66ots," Brooks Brown says. "That happened while teachers watched. They couldn't fight back. They wore the ketchup all day and went home covered with it." In his book, No Easy Answers: The Truth Behind Death at Columbine, Brown wrote that Harris was born with mild chest indent. This made him reluctant to take his shirt off in gym class, and other students would laugh at him.

"A lot of the tension in the school came from the class above us," Chad Laughlin states. "There were people fearful of walking by a table where you knew you didn't belong, stuff like that. Certain groups certainly got preferential treatment across the board. I caught the tail end of one really horrible incident, and I know Dylan told his mother that it was the worst day of his life." That incident, according to Laughlin, involved seniors pelting Klebold with "ketchup-covered tampons" in the commons.

R23: I don't think this was a case of terrorism. There was no political or revolutionary message here. No indication of a broader agenda or desire to instill fear beyond that school. No indication of a desire to inspire others to rise up and do the same at their school.

This was a lashing out at a specific peer group who they felt wronged. by. Mass murder and terrorism aren't synonymous.

I understand you have a desire to make a political point about race and terrorism in America, but adding in cases that don't fit dies nothing to further your cause. It's just a form of crying wolf.

Stick to actual cases of terrorism such as Oklahoma City and Charleston if you want your campaign to be taken seriously.

They were highly social and not isolated in the way that R27 suggests, as this video taken of Harris and friends, probably by Klebold, reveals. Indeed, if some said they were bullied, others said they were bullies at the mall. In the video they actively harass one woman who approaches their table ("she brings it on herself") and another seems unsettled to be around them in the hall. They sit around talking about people they hate.

Cullen's book is an excellent account, but it is flawed in that it represents Columbine as an idealised HS, as Cullen became close to the Principal. It was not , there was bullying like in any HS, with the Principal and the senior staff apparently having a preference for the sporty, Jock type students.

However, it is excellent in its portrayal's of the characters and psychology of Klebold, Harris and Brown.

Klebold had traits of Borderline personality disorder - very intensely emotional, craved (idealised) love, had suicidal ideation, and bouts of severe depression. He was not however a loner, he was well integrated socially.

Harris was a psychopath. His writings make that abundantly clear. He was a rotten little bastard, viciously misanthropic and hateful and determined to commit some act of mass murder in order to make a name for himself. He manipulated Klebold and Brooks into being his minions, and was able to tap into Klebold's borderline rage and impulsivity and exploit it.

As far as the adults around them, yes, there was some unwillingness to recognise how disturbed Harris and Klebold were - Brooks' mother was very disturbed by Harris who attacked her car at one point , she complained to the police and his parents but nothing was done. But ultimately each was personality disordered and there is no cure for those disorders. The best that could have been done for Klebold would have been to separate them, by one family moving interstate. But Harris was going to commit an atrocity sooner or later, he was beyond any help.

Footage of them behaving like bullies in one instance doesn't negate the possibility they were also victims of bullying. They would hardly be the first ones to turn into a bully after being the targets of another bully.

^ didn't make clear that Brooks Brown may not have a PD, I can;t recall what Cullen's conclusion about him were. He was very close to both Harris and Klebold however and may well have known what they were planning. Someone also got them access to guns - possible the guy who ran the pizza place Harris worked at?

R31, they had friends, they were members of clubs. There is no fucking evidence that they were subjected to bullying and even if they had been, what they did were the acts of maniacs, severely disturbed individuals. They were born that way, they were not socialised into being mass murderers. Read Harris' vile rantings and then see how sorry you feel for him.

Brooks Brown seems to create a fantasist conception of life at Columbine. Watch the video. Normal place, normal kids. Outcasts do not have people coming up to say hello.

Being in a club, having friends, and people saying hi to you doesn't mean you aren't an outcast or being bullied. I played on a baseball team with a guy who was mercilessly bullied by others on the team and the head coach. He was also in a video game club and had a girlfriend. However, the bullying by our teammates was so awful that he became a cutter.

Even if they had serious personality disorders, not all anti social or borderline types commit mass murder. There are often environmental variables that cultivate those internal flaws into tragic acts of violence. That school seems to have had a culture of tolerance toward bullying and negative identity politics that incubated a couple of crazies into murderers.

The parents clearly did the same...

I recall reading somewhere that one of the kids, maybe Harris, had been in trouble and was suspended? Wither that or some girl blew him off that he wanted to date. Anyway, this was allegedly the precipitating incident that focused them on blowing up school. There was definitely a grudge involved.

R23 You mean like the black Muslim Alton Nolen, who in Oklahoma decapitated one woman and was in the process of decapitating another woman when he was shot with a rifle by the company CEO ( a reserve deputy with the Oklahoma County Sheriff's Department ). Or perhaps you were referring to the Arab Muslim Nidal Hasan, who killed thirteen people at Ft. Hood. In a rather brutal irony, soldiers trained in the use of weapons couldn't defend themselves because they couldn't carry personal guns on base. These acts of terror were considered workplace violence. Again, neither of these men were white and "according to the United States and Corporate News Media policies it is not possible for these men to be terrorists".

Remember the incident they got arrested for? They broke into a van with tools and video equipment. They got caught, They both pretended to be regretful in court. Harris wrote a letter of apology to the victim, something along the lines of, "Hey man, I realize you're just like me And if someone stole from me, I would be very upset."

He went on a tirade, however, in his journal, calling the victim an asshole who deserved to be stolen from because he didn't try to conceal the contents of his van. According to Harris, he (Harris) had the right to steal from the victim because the victim had the nerve to tempt Harris by leaving his equipment in his (locked) van in view where Harris could see it.

He's the bully.

The convergence of a number of factors- alienated kids- a weapons culture (munitions is the main business of Columbine) and easy access to firearms. We have the capability of cutting deaths in this nation from fire arms to less than 1000 per year. Instead we chase after ISIS which as yet has not killed close to 1000 American per year, much less nearly 30,000.

R39 I get your point but the "instead we chase after ISIS" part is just not viable. We need to do both. ISIS is a very real threat just as gun violence domestically is a very real threat. I think what I'm getting from your comment is that our own gun culture and gun violence in the USA poses a bigger, more immediate threat than ISIS does, yet we're addressing ISIS,while we ignore the larger, more immediate threat. The irony is also that we can be visibly and measurably effective in reducing domestic gun violence, while dealing with ISIS and measuring our effectiveness may prove more illusive.

[quote]We have the capability of cutting deaths in this nation from fire arms to less than 1000 per year.

Oh really? And how could we do that?

Many people forget that the vast majority of gun violence in America is perpetrated both BY and AGAINST gang members.

Who's taking away their guns? Never gonna happen!

[quote]Many people forget that the vast majority of gun violence in America is perpetrated both BY and AGAINST gang members.

Many people also don't seem to realize that most interracial violence is between gang members. Bizarrely, in FBI crime stats for interracial murders, MS-13 "La Raza" gangbangers are categorized as "white".

OP, read the definitive book, "Columbine," written by gay author Dave Cullen. It will tell you everything you want to know. He was there from day one. He knows what is true and what was flat out bullshit.

Bullshit. Gangs are not the source of most gun violence in America.

Technically, the most severe gun violence is self-inflicted; about 60% of gun deaths in America are suicides. (It's interesting to note that Japan has twice the suicide rate of America but since they lack access to guns, they use other methods---namely, jumping and poison).

When you actually look at the stats of gun violence in America, you realize how many lies are told by everyone. The fact that 60% of gun deaths are result of suicide is enough to prove there is hysteria over the issue. Suicides heavily pad the panic stats & disprove this talking point about how much gun control would curb the violence.

Then, you look at the fact that only 5% are by rifle. Add that to the fact that mass shootings are only 1% of all gun related deaths each year and you see how the media and gun demagoging politicians are creating a false narrative.

They should work for faux news

I don't own a gun or even want to see efforts for responsible gun control to be hampered. Having said that, I am also tired about the lies from both sides. Our gun deaths need to be attacked by reality, not contrived rhetoric.

I am far more interested to see changes to mental health services and support for those who are on the verge of cracking than I am gun restrictions that have already been tried and failed to make a dent

It was all Marilyn Manson's fault, KMFDM too.

[quote] People have tried to insinuate they were gay since it happened and they mean it as a slur. They are homophobic.

Same with people who say Hitler was gay. No, he wasn't. You're just homophobic.

Soy additives, this shit needs to stop.

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